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ouatTime for discussion questions for this week's episode!
1. Okay. Anyone actually think Gold would die? The PR people went into overdrive trying to make it a mystery but clearly Robert Carlyle was staying and Barbara Hershey is moving on to destroy more lives elsewhere. Of course they could have had Snow misfire and kill someone else. Who were you hoping would be off the show or was it the right time to get rid of Cora?
2. And Snow White. I didn't know she had it in her. I did know she could murder if need be (as in killing when not in the course of battle or war) since she has come close before and you are unlikely to have a more worthy target than the one who murdered your mother. But to manipulate Regina like that! Clearly she has been taking lessons. Was Snow justified in actively causing Cora's death? Does manipulating Regina into killing her own mother make it worse? In her death has Cora finally achieved her aim of blackening Snow's heart? (There is some lovely irony there I think. Both in corrupting Snow through her own murder and in providing the murder weapon.)
3. Rumpel was quite clever, and interested in continuing to live, by presenting the choice to Snow as an either or. Either he dies and Cora lives, probably becoming the Dark One in the process though Snow was willing to try and control her through her heart, or Snow kills Cora with the candle, getting her vengeance, while saving Rumpel's life. What about the third choice? Snow finds and immediately crushes Cora's heart. Cora's dead and Rumpel is dead soon after.
4. Considering it's a tv show, Snow isn't going anywhere just like Rumpel wasn't, so what can Regina do? We know what she will try to do but what will stop her? Once her anger cools and hardens will she go for a complicated plot instead of direct murder? (I could kill you now but wait there is better way!) Or will the season/episode end with her finally letting go of vengeance and starting to build a positive life for herself?
5. Would Cora really have given up world domination/evil/wanting to be the Dark One once she had her heart back? Yes, she said it would have been enough and Regina would have been enough but she was dying. Young Cora was hungry for power and happy to do whatever was necessary to get it including removing her own heart (she even freaked out the Dark One) to achieve her goals.
6. So Cora decided to pursue power to the exclusion of all else since she was tripped and humiliated? This is the origin of a multi-generational vendetta. There must be more to it, right? Or by removing her heart and using that moment as a magical focal point did Cora doom herself to never being able to move on?
7. As of this episode Cora is fifth in line for the throne and as of Stable Boy they are by all appearances a wealthy but not a noble family. Hmmm. Why do I think the Rumpelstiltskin/Cora story is not quite over? I can't imagine he simply shrugged and forgot about her. I predict a BIG fight - one which leaves Cora alive and in possession of Regina but makes sure she will never ascend the throne herself. (At least not in FTL - she gets what she wanted in Wonderland.)
8. Anyone confused about who the royals of Cora's kingdom are in relation to everyone else? We could use a map but until then - according to the writers this kingdom is an entirely new one, Eva is visiting from her own kingdom for the 'get Henry married off ball', and Leopold's kingdom is different one from both of those.
9. Is Emma continuing to learn magic a good or bad thing? The power has been shown to be rather addicting, though that may have more to do with angry, vengeance filled people learning it. And Gold is appealing to Emma's good side and desire to help and protect instead of her dark side. I guess the question is whether magic is a tool (neither good nor bad in its essence) or if it inevitably leads to darkness. Also, of course, Gold's motivations in teaching her will make a difference.
10. Did Cora and Rumpelstiltskin love each other? It clearly was not True Love since it didn't break his curse (though curse breaking kisses may need curse breaking intent as well - as in if you don't want to break a curse they are simply kisses even for True Loves) but Rumpel changed his contract for his love of her and she removed her heart so as not to be stopped by her love of him.
11. Can Bae forgive his papa? They did share a lovely moment in this episode but then Rumpel was dying and it is easier to put problems aside in a crisis. I would be surprised if it is as easy as that in the long term. Like Regina, he is estranged from his son for love of magic and power, but now that they are near each other it's a least possible for them to reconcile.
1. Okay. Anyone actually think Gold would die? The PR people went into overdrive trying to make it a mystery but clearly Robert Carlyle was staying and Barbara Hershey is moving on to destroy more lives elsewhere. Of course they could have had Snow misfire and kill someone else. Who were you hoping would be off the show or was it the right time to get rid of Cora?
2. And Snow White. I didn't know she had it in her. I did know she could murder if need be (as in killing when not in the course of battle or war) since she has come close before and you are unlikely to have a more worthy target than the one who murdered your mother. But to manipulate Regina like that! Clearly she has been taking lessons. Was Snow justified in actively causing Cora's death? Does manipulating Regina into killing her own mother make it worse? In her death has Cora finally achieved her aim of blackening Snow's heart? (There is some lovely irony there I think. Both in corrupting Snow through her own murder and in providing the murder weapon.)
3. Rumpel was quite clever, and interested in continuing to live, by presenting the choice to Snow as an either or. Either he dies and Cora lives, probably becoming the Dark One in the process though Snow was willing to try and control her through her heart, or Snow kills Cora with the candle, getting her vengeance, while saving Rumpel's life. What about the third choice? Snow finds and immediately crushes Cora's heart. Cora's dead and Rumpel is dead soon after.
4. Considering it's a tv show, Snow isn't going anywhere just like Rumpel wasn't, so what can Regina do? We know what she will try to do but what will stop her? Once her anger cools and hardens will she go for a complicated plot instead of direct murder? (I could kill you now but wait there is better way!) Or will the season/episode end with her finally letting go of vengeance and starting to build a positive life for herself?
5. Would Cora really have given up world domination/evil/wanting to be the Dark One once she had her heart back? Yes, she said it would have been enough and Regina would have been enough but she was dying. Young Cora was hungry for power and happy to do whatever was necessary to get it including removing her own heart (she even freaked out the Dark One) to achieve her goals.
6. So Cora decided to pursue power to the exclusion of all else since she was tripped and humiliated? This is the origin of a multi-generational vendetta. There must be more to it, right? Or by removing her heart and using that moment as a magical focal point did Cora doom herself to never being able to move on?
7. As of this episode Cora is fifth in line for the throne and as of Stable Boy they are by all appearances a wealthy but not a noble family. Hmmm. Why do I think the Rumpelstiltskin/Cora story is not quite over? I can't imagine he simply shrugged and forgot about her. I predict a BIG fight - one which leaves Cora alive and in possession of Regina but makes sure she will never ascend the throne herself. (At least not in FTL - she gets what she wanted in Wonderland.)
8. Anyone confused about who the royals of Cora's kingdom are in relation to everyone else? We could use a map but until then - according to the writers this kingdom is an entirely new one, Eva is visiting from her own kingdom for the 'get Henry married off ball', and Leopold's kingdom is different one from both of those.
9. Is Emma continuing to learn magic a good or bad thing? The power has been shown to be rather addicting, though that may have more to do with angry, vengeance filled people learning it. And Gold is appealing to Emma's good side and desire to help and protect instead of her dark side. I guess the question is whether magic is a tool (neither good nor bad in its essence) or if it inevitably leads to darkness. Also, of course, Gold's motivations in teaching her will make a difference.
10. Did Cora and Rumpelstiltskin love each other? It clearly was not True Love since it didn't break his curse (though curse breaking kisses may need curse breaking intent as well - as in if you don't want to break a curse they are simply kisses even for True Loves) but Rumpel changed his contract for his love of her and she removed her heart so as not to be stopped by her love of him.
11. Can Bae forgive his papa? They did share a lovely moment in this episode but then Rumpel was dying and it is easier to put problems aside in a crisis. I would be surprised if it is as easy as that in the long term. Like Regina, he is estranged from his son for love of magic and power, but now that they are near each other it's a least possible for them to reconcile.
no subject
Date: 2013-03-14 04:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-03-14 05:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-03-14 12:39 pm (UTC)And I have a hard time believing motherhood would have been enough for Cora if she had had her heart, even though those are her dying words.
This ep was great!
no subject
Date: 2013-03-14 05:29 pm (UTC)I can see it as being enough for a little while but the craving for power and control came before she took out her heart not as a consequence.
I agree! It was one of the best of the series!
no subject
Date: 2013-03-19 04:02 pm (UTC)My thoughts exactly!
no subject
Date: 2013-03-19 06:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-03-14 07:41 pm (UTC)I didn't, and that made the episode very enjoyable. xD Else I would have been a nervous wreak throughout it.
Does manipulating Regina into killing her own mother make it worse?
I do think so, yes. I think in itself she was justified in killing Cora, though that didn't help my inner "oh God stop listening to Rumpelstiltskin again" screams; she had every reason to believe Cora really would harm her and her family again, and stopping her, securely, without killing her would have been very difficult. And, in all fairness, putting the heart back inside Cora herself would have been virtually impossible. But that manipulation of Regina was vile.
Would Cora really have given up world domination/evil/wanting to be the Dark One once she had her heart back?
I doubt she would have given up becoming the Dark One, if Rumple had survived as well: that wasn't just about power for power's sake, that was her safeguard against him. I'm getting the impression that she decided that being more powerful than everyone else was the only way to avoid humiliation, and that was the case before she ripped her heart out. But I do think that with her heart back, and secure power, she might have abandoned actively causing future harm and world domination.
I agree that you can't really trust her dying words, but the realisation that love can be worth more than power to her is likely completely new to her – it wasn't the case with Rumple – so I think it's possible it would have fundamentally changed her.
Why do I think the Rumpelstiltskin/Cora story is not quite over?
I hope not. Besides, he's mentioned that he held Regina as a child, and we haven't seen that happen, so that's a fight we're still owed. :p (Whyyyy! They could have ruled the world and destroyed everyone who ever looked at them funny and had a happy family and overall it might have caused less harm than what happened instead!)
no subject
Date: 2013-03-16 02:12 am (UTC)But that manipulation of Regina was vile.
I agree. Killing Cora is one thing - she is a mass murderer and on her way to even greater evil - but manipulating Regina into doing it by appealing to her desire for love and family was a truly terrible thing to do.
if Rumple had survived as well: that wasn't just about power for power's sake, that was her safeguard against him.
Oooh. Good point. Now that she has gone up against Rumpel again there is nothing stopping him from crushing her this time.
They could have ruled the world and destroyed everyone who ever looked at them funny and had a happy family and overall it might have caused less harm than what happened instead!
This the reason for fanfic! I hope we get at least one epic AU.
And we are definitely owed the baby holding and how Cora went from wife of a prince to minor untitled noble family.
no subject
Date: 2013-03-19 04:53 pm (UTC)This the reason for fanfic! I hope we get at least one epic AU.
Please, please, please! If fandom doesn't give me any Cora/Rumple I'll be very disappointed.
no subject
Date: 2013-03-15 07:46 pm (UTC)There is clearly more Cora backstory to be had and I'm looking forward to seeing it.
There IS a ton of kingdoms by now and here's my crack theory: everyone who manages to build a big enough castle gets to call him/herself a king/queen. that's why every other kingdom is broke, too. ;)
Seriously, though, the fact that this Prince Henry was Henry flew over my head first because Regina's family didn't seem royal in prev eps.
And now another question: why is Belle still in hospital? Didn't she have a father who wanted to make her lose her memories before? Why can't he pick her up now? (note that I have forgotten what happened to him)
no subject
Date: 2013-03-17 03:03 am (UTC)I couldn't figure out why Belle was still in the hospital a few episodes ago. She was IN NO WAY physically injured. Maybe I can see bringing her in for a few hours but after that makes no sense. As for her father, he did kidnap her and arrange for her to be assaulted (ie chained to the mine cart) so I'm fine with him not being around.
no subject
Date: 2013-03-17 06:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-03-17 10:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-03-19 03:39 pm (UTC)I mean I can see it if this were a movie or a book or if he was anyone other than one of our main characters (Rumpel, Regina, Emma, Snow, Charming, Henry) then I would have been worried. But since it was Carlyle I truly didn't believe they would get rid of him this soon. Especially since death seems to be very permanent on Once.
no subject
Date: 2013-03-19 03:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-03-19 03:49 pm (UTC)I'm not sure if the show would even work if Carlyle left! He is so all over the flashbacks and everyone's backstory that it would be odd if he suddenly disappeared. And I think they would have trouble keeping him if they were to reduce his story so much so I doubt keeping him for the flashbacks is feasible.
no subject
Date: 2013-03-19 03:52 pm (UTC)